Darky
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Post by Darky on Feb 4, 2020 20:15:35 GMT -6
For the life of me I cant find the post where it was recently mentioned, but given said call-out-in-post, I, uh, did a thing:
Basically, a redone tutorial (hopefully worded in a more understandable manner) + all the expertises re-worked, re-worded and re-balanced. It needs a ton of proof-reading and even more play testing, hence the very relevant tag of Beta slapped on it. I tried to proof the math as much as I could, but there will definitely be aspects that'll only come out in actual gameplay, so balance tweaks and changes are likely. Hopefully most pieces people were specifically concerned with are fixed there x3
For now, this isn't ready for release but anyone who wants to give it a go and play out builds on paper or Misc, let me know your results ~ Oh, and there's probably typos in places too.
Suggested Additions (will work on these)
[none at the moment]
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Post by Renathan on Feb 5, 2020 3:23:01 GMT -6
I'm looking at this right now. :3 I read some of it before I took a nap last night, and I'll go through the rest today. I'mma get the rest of the mods on this and see what we can do.
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Post by Riku on Feb 5, 2020 8:42:30 GMT -6
This looks awesome! Been reviewing it for like six hours. Bravo! I’m really excited about all of the changes you made and the things you specified. I see a lot of things weakened for balance, and a few others made less pathetic.
Recommended additions/changes -Phoenix Wing work while holding weapons as well. -Overpower offensive option, disarming success lasts two turns still. If used as offensive, enemy loses their defense then attack - able to defend again the next turn. If used as defensive, they lose their attack then defense as usual.
New weapons require new expertises. ;) -Wand/Staff offensive/defensive expertise in Marksmanship. -Shooting Jump, ranged version of Forceful Jump to jump AWAY and attack ranged rather than just jump TO for melee. -Double Burst, wand/staff version of Double Swing. -Higher Burst, wand/staff version of Whirlwind. Raise the weapons into the sky to strike all foes in range from above, leaving self vulnerable. -Scattered Burst, wand/staff version of Multi-Shot. Every 20cp gives another burst to target another foe. -Spinning Burst, wand/staff version of Double-Sided Sword offensive. They are one-handed, but this expertise uses both hands to spin and send out bursts for +2d4/dex. Requires ‘Use Double-Sided Sword’.
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Darky
Flea Market Artist
Veritas et Aequitas
Posts: 1,268
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Post by Darky on Feb 5, 2020 9:38:49 GMT -6
This looks awesome! Been reviewing it for like six hours. Bravo! I’m really excited about all of the changes you made and the things you specified. I see a lot of things weakened for balance, and a few others made less pathetic. Recommended additions/changes-Phoenix Wing work while holding weapons as well. -Overpower offensive option, disarming success lasts two turns still. If used as offensive, enemy loses their defense then attack - able to defend again the next turn. If used as defensive, they lose their attack then defense as usual. New weapons require new expertises. -Wand/Staff offensive/defensive expertise in Marksmanship.- Shooting Jump, ranged version of Forceful Jump to jump AWAY and attack ranged rather than just jump TO for melee. - Double Burst, wand/staff version of Double Swing. - Higher Burst, wand/staff version of Whirlwind. Raise the weapons into the sky to strike all foes in range from above, leaving self vulnerable. - Scattered Burst, wand/staff version of Multi-Shot. Every 20cp gives another burst to target another foe. - Spinning Burst, wand/staff version of Double-Sided Sword offensive. They are one-handed, but this expertise uses both hands to spin and send out bursts for +2d4/dex. Requires ‘Use Double-Sided Sword’.
Phoenix Wing - This can still be used even if you have a weapon in hand, the Requirement is more about being trained in unarmed strikes in order to be good enough in skill to deflect such attacks. Despite the fact Martial Arts focuses on attacks meant to do without weapons, it doesn't prevent the user from wielding any (much like how in other systems you have monk-like moves but also monk-like weapons). Just when you use those expertises while wielding a weapon, you don't add anything from the weapon's stats to the total(s). You can still Punch if you have a sword in the other hand, but the sword wont be dealing any damage x3
Overpower - I made Disarming expertises Defensive ones on the basis that the opponent would be coming "at" you with a weapon one way or another. Though, I can also see potential for adding an Offensive Disarm expertise, much like fencers sometimes can do, though it would be more situational since the person you're attacking might not even be armed for it to work x3 (Added to list)
Wand/Staff Offensive/Defensive Expertises - We have that one :3 It's Arcane Discharge for Offensive, and Exotic Defender for Defensive (both under Exotic), though since a Wizard Staff is considered Exotic, you could theoretically also use Side-Block (under Spearguard) for defence (though not with the Wand, as a wand isn't 'staff-sized'). I made Exotics a little more open in their use, so they're not locked into their own expertise group so much in terms of flavour.
Shooting Jump - Ranged attackers can use Disengage if they wish to escape the confines of Melee, but otherwise I don't want to give Ranged attackers the option to be always at range and also attack at the same time. Ranged combat has a pretty strong superiority over Melee combat due to the fact there's very few expertises that allow you to defend yourself against such attacks (used to be even less before) and if combat begins at range, the Melee attackers need to spend turns to even reach the Ranged attackers, taking damage all the while. So the idea behind expertises like Forceful Jump was to give Melee attackers options for 'closing the gap' if they were willing to invest in that.
Double Burst - Hmm.. it's potentially an idea, though I'd be wary mostly because Wizard Staffs/Wands have Charges rather than ammo. So Double Burst would increase the rate at which the weapon is depleted, while other Ranged weaponry can simply have more ammo to compensate. I'll add it and think on it for now.
Higher Burst / Scattering Burst - Oooh.. I could do something similar to that.. Though, again, more shots per turn, more Charges spent x3; (Added for consideration)
Spinning Burst - If you mean the Double-Headed expertise, then any Wizard Staff type weapon that has a crystal/charge point/what-have-you on both ends can use Double-Headed to the same effect.
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Post by Riku on Feb 5, 2020 17:07:13 GMT -6
I’m glad phoenix was clarified. Focusing Jump non-ranged reasoning makes absolute sense. Great point. As for Overpower, the fencing situation was exactly what I was referencing. ;) As a strategy (and fun way to mock mid-battle), use your attacking turn to do no damage, but potentially disarm your opponent. By the time it was their defending turn again, they’ll have already picked up their weapon so they can use it to defend. It essentially gives the disarmer a free attack, just like with the defending. Except, instead of receiving half damage, you forfeit the damage you’d normally give that round.
As for the wand/staff expertises, I meant that while it makes sense for the ability to wield them be exotic, that since they are ranged weapons their non-passive expertises should uses marksmanship skill ranks, rather than take up the combat ranks of someone who’d rather use a (equally powerful, not more, mind you) staff than a bow or gun. And as for the charges a staff or wand has, the attacker would have to just keep track of that as they normally would. It seems no different than only having a certain amount of arrows with you. Choosing to use expertises that require more will just be something they already accepted.
And for double-headed, I meant a staff-specific expertise (since no other ranged weapon can physically relate to the required movement and thus advantage.) Since double-headed is originally for melee weapons, it uses strength, since many of those weapons normally do. Ranged weapons only use Dexterity, hence a new expertise to reflect that (or an updated effect to specify 1d4 str+dex if melee, or 2d4 dex if ranged?) I added that it required a double-bladed proficiency because this expertise requires two hands, which normal staffs do not. However.....since this would have to be a double-sided staff anyway which can only exist when customized, does that mean it can just be learned AS an exotic double-sided staff proficiency...? Just like how a double-sided sword doesn’t require sword and double-sided proficiency separately? Hm...
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Darky
Flea Market Artist
Veritas et Aequitas
Posts: 1,268
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Post by Darky on Feb 5, 2020 17:42:58 GMT -6
Disarming - The main problem I ran into when working on offensive expertises is that you can't really make them deal no damage. People defending against them would use expertises which have descriptions specifically related to avoiding damage, rather than effects. And you can't really consider a Disarm a secondary effect, if its the only effect the attack has. It kinda creates this messy Rules Lawyer loop hole that can get sticky in logic. This is the reason why a lot of the offensive expertises now deal some form of damage, some greater, some less. It would definitely still have to damage, but I'm thinking of probably making the Disarm a much smaller chance to compensate (after all, the foe will be Defending, which means they're standing ready to avoid effects, rather than cause them).
Staff/Wand + Double-Headed - Aaah, I see now, you meant to use these staffs as only ranged weapons. I'm afraid they would still have to be under Exotic, even if they deal with ranged combat, primarily because they are not 'traditional' forms of weapons, such as bows and firearms. That's a good point on Double-Headed being melee-only, I forgot to take that into account (and have added the appropriate note into the expertise now as well). However, I would not add an expertise that allows double-headed ranged weapons, much for the same reason as before about ranged combat already having advantages, but also because traditional weapons already have expertises that allow them more than one shot per turn and I'll look into making the arcane equivalent of those next.
So for Wizard's Staffs you have the attack options of: Arcane Discharge (Offensive, single attack, ranged), [Wizard Multi-Shot, or whatever its name will be] (Offesive, can target additional foes, ranged) and [Wizard's ground slam] (Offensive, multiple targets, melee). Thinking on it, Twin-Shot may be a bit much too, you don't really need two ranged weapons at a time, because then I'd need to also add something like Guns Akimbo for firearms and hand crossbows and it'll get messy. But regardless, those three expertises should give Staffs quite a bit of variety and options to play around with :3
Also note: the difference between Charges and Ammo is that ammo can be replenished. If a staff runs out of Charges, that it for the rest of the day. If an archer runs out of arrows, that's it until they can find more arrows (or someone gives them more arrows), if that makes sense?
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Post by Riku on Feb 5, 2020 18:06:27 GMT -6
I understand the charge/ammo thing. -nod-
I had actually written double firearm and crossbow expertises into my initial list, but apparently pasted over them. My third character is gonna be either double hand crossbows or double hand guns. Haven't decided yet. Pirate, so guns would fit. I just personally dislike them and have always found string-projectors fascinating. Double hand-crossbows seems very unique, though. <3
As for double-headed ranged weapons, the logic is this: If they can already do double damage in one turn while using rapid fire/sniper shot/twin burst, why not mimic Double-Headed’s ability to simply (partially) amp up the individual burst without having to spend another charge for it to act like two whole-powered attacks? It was inspired by how the mages fight in Dragon age Inquisition. They swing that staff around like a baton, which makes a more powerful single burst.
Also note, the stabbing with held arrow listed is a good idea. Makes catching and keeping them more useful. ;)
Oh, and for offensive disarm, you can specify in the guide that defending against an offensive expertise that does no damage, simply count the damage taken as zero. So if a defensive roll is successful, they take 10% less (for example) of that 0, which is still zero. And the secondary effect, which would be the sole intention of the attack, would simply fail. However, in the case of Overpower, if the offensive roll is successful, then they have a test of strength.
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Darky
Flea Market Artist
Veritas et Aequitas
Posts: 1,268
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Post by Darky on Feb 5, 2020 18:12:58 GMT -6
Well, you've kinda answered your own argument there, I feel x3 If they already have options for multiple damage in a single turn, why need another one? And to the point of Charges, the idea would still be 1 Charge per shot, regardless of expertise (much like you would still spend 1 arrow/bolt/bullet pet shot), since that is part of the price you'd need to pay to get that multi-damage advantage. Hence, how you can get in a fair amount of damage, but burn through your charges that much quicker.
Disarm - that's where it gets messy, because technically it produces a turn where the Defender does nothing. Disarms are a test of power, rather than a roll to hit, so even if a Defender succeeds on their roll, the Disarm is the sole effect, not secondary, meaning it would work as normal. The Defender basically defends against no damage and doesn't have all that much say in whether their weapon is taken from them or not, which would be unfair to the defender. If I was to make it damaging, I'd probably make it 1 dmg per strength or dex + Disarm, but make the Disarm like a 5% chance per 10 CP. If the Defender succeeds, no harm, no foul, all good. If the attacker succeeds, its a little damage and up to 50% chance to Disarm.
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Post by Riku on Feb 5, 2020 22:33:36 GMT -6
That makes sense about disarm. As for the ranged, my concern is there being a twin shot option for ranged attacks, rather than just multiple target. However, Sniper Shot may work, giving a 50% chance for that second hit. -shrug-
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Darky
Flea Market Artist
Veritas et Aequitas
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Post by Darky on Feb 6, 2020 4:35:34 GMT -6
There you go~
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Post by Riku on Feb 10, 2020 18:41:34 GMT -6
Question: What is the point of separating combat and marksmanship? And why is the cp Limited to 700 in either?
I feel like answering those questions will help me understand the decisions made for certain rules. Also, based on those two answers, what does Marksmanship mean to you? Cuz it can't just be string/arrow related attacks, since guns fall under that. And it can’t be ranged attacks, since thrown weapons are assassin-combat. I consider Marksman skills to be any skill that has to do with a type of combat that requires precise aim from a distance, or supporting such a task. (Hence evade being under marksmanship.)
My suggestion is either making Marksmanship a subclass of Combat - or renaming ‘Combat’ to ‘Melee’, since the whole system is the Combat System, and Marksmanship is a form of combat. Also, instead of having one class of Marksmanship that holds bows/guns/etc, have separate classes just like Melee/Combat. There can be a Firearm, Arrow, Thrown, and Exotic class. That way weapons that are ranged and would use marksmanship CP wouldn’t have to be under assassin or melee-exotic and take up crucial melee/combat CP.
I’m suggesting this with the thought that they are separate to show a distinction between close and ranged combat expertises. And 700CP capped to create a sort of balance.
New question: Does it say anything about switching weapons? Is it ‘free’? Or does it take half a turn...?
New expertise idea: -ranged weapon bash - For when a ranged weapon is in melee range. Bash the foe with the weapon (if it isn’t too fragile to handle it.) Does the weapon’s base damage as blunt. Probably no or little damage bonus with CP raised. -ranged weapon shove - For when a ranged weapon is in melee range. Shove the foe with the weapon (if it isn’t too fragile to handle it.) Does low blunt damage, maybe 1 per 10CP, with a % chance to shove the foe into close distance. (To hopefully start using ranged weapon again, or have the enemy run back at them on their own attacking turn. Then again...can’t you use your defending turn (while they’re running towards you on their attacking) to run ‘further’, leaving you at still ‘close’ during your new attacking turn...?)
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Darky
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Veritas et Aequitas
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Post by Darky on Feb 11, 2020 4:15:19 GMT -6
I can answer that, thought it'll definitely need a bit of explaining, since Ranged combat is something that has been through a few stages of evolution x3
When Spirit originally made the first character battle system, it was very rudamentary (we didn't really have expertises, we just had 'moves' players could use that they bought with skills, but they were few and very limited). Back then fighting was just Melee and Ranged (Combat and Marksmanship, respectively). After the first overhaul expertises came into play and Combat was expanded into many different styles of melee fighting (the categories we know now) while all the bow/crossbow/firearm stuff was placed under Marksmanship. Admittedly you do make a good point that ranged combat is just a form of combat, but back then Ranged fighting was a little different - namely a lot of the time it hit like a dump truck (2d8 per bullet, anyone?) and it was impossible to defend yourself from it. Over time we fixed the dump truck hitting by reworking Weapon profiles, which did away with the whole "2dx" dice by making all ranged weaponry deal a singe die (like melee does), adding ranges and balancing dice effects. However the no-defending issue still remained.
With Player Combat 2.0 I tried to even the playing field by making more defensive expertises and allowing shields to block damage as normal from ranged attacks, while also giving both sides new and better options to play around with. However, even so, Marksmanship expertises kind of stand apart from other Combat ones because they cannot easily be defended against. Specific defences work, but you'd need to do some heavy investing in them. Because of this, it makes sense to continue having Marksmanship be its own thing.
The CP limits were set down by Silver, and they have actually been increased two-three times over the years (it used to be 500 CP at some point, if I remember right). Personally I think the 700/300 split is pretty decent, because it gives you quite a good amount of wiggle room in your builds, while also allowing you to put together some pretty decent heavy hitting. As to why it's max. 700 in one and not 1000, like the overall total, we felt that (back when the change was made) it's a good incentive to have people include a bit of both groups while not necessarily robbing them if they wish to specialize. Versatility over quantity kind of thing.
As for Throwing, while this does allow more versatility in range, pretty much all throwing weapons function in the Melee-Close range, which sets them apart from other ranged weaponry, because they're more like 'Melee adjacent' ranged than 'Full' ranged, if that makes sense.
Weapon Switch - At the moment the system doesn't include a mechanic for weapon switching. In part because it's yet untested in actually battle/fight scenarios (but if anyone wants to run simulations in Misc I'm hella all about it) and in part because the limit of CP means it doesn't pay to have too many different weapons on hand. I can definitely add one if it becomes apparent it's needed (and you bring up a good point about it too, the whole 'one-handed/two-handed' thing kinda becomes moot if a person Attacks two-handed but just immediately switches to a one-handed and a shield when its their time to Defend, and keeps doing that every round). For now, assume Suspension of Disbelief is in effect, which is to say, ask yourself "does it feel silly to switch weapons every single turn?" and if the answer is 'yes' then probably avoid doing it x3
Ranged Weapon Bash - I do plan to add Arrow Stab, but otherwise Ranged characters have access to unarmed strikes that they can use to defend themselves with in melee. Most ranged weaponry don't really hold up to being used as a melee weapon (and the ones that do, like firearms, aren't great for it x3 Pistol whipping isn't an effective mode of combat, except if surprising someone, and even then Hollywood definitely plays that one up a lot more). Although I am tempted by the thought of being able to throw your ranged weaponry (this pistol empty, YEET) sadly I don't think it would really be any more damaging than throwing a stick most of the time. Worst case, Weapon of Anything could technically cover it?
Ranged Weapon Shove - The main problem is Close is a fair bit of distance away, something like a dozen or so feet. A shove wouldn't be enough to push them that far (hence why most Move-related expertises are more like jumps or hasted actions on the user's parts, rather than forcing an enemy to move).
Movement - In theory? Yes, if we're talking Melee/Close. But also consider that if the user moves in their Defensive turn (without using an expertise for it), the foe gets an auto-hit on them. Depending on when the foe moved (if they moved in the user's Attack turn, they would be in Melee at the start of the Defensive turn) they could auto-hit on either a Melee attack or use something with Close range (such as Thrown weapons) to still damage them. The game of Keep-Away might not necessarily work x3
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Darky
Flea Market Artist
Veritas et Aequitas
Posts: 1,268
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Post by Darky on Feb 11, 2020 11:36:18 GMT -6
..ALTHOUGH. Now that I think more on it, bayonets could absolutely be a thing *adds that*
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Darky
Flea Market Artist
Veritas et Aequitas
Posts: 1,268
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Post by Darky on Feb 12, 2020 15:07:10 GMT -6
To add in case people are wondering:
It's always possible to expand the currently available expertises, if there's a specific style/feel you might want to see. The current list is 95% of the old expertises reworked, and about 5% of some new stuff that I felt would be good for additional options, but it's by no means an exhaustive list. So if your character is one to swing around axes and you feel they might be a little restricted in options with that, feel free to mention axes could use something more :3
Separately, I'm also working on fleshing out a more 'animalistic' expertise list for characters with a more 'primal' flavour, but that one will need more vetting from the mods.
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Darky
Flea Market Artist
Veritas et Aequitas
Posts: 1,268
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Post by Darky on Mar 3, 2020 18:23:06 GMT -6
System Updates:
1. Finalized the added suggestions as follows:
(These will be kept at the bottom of the document under Construction until the mods have had a chance to catch up with the rest of the document.)
2. In addition, added a mechanic for Weapon Swapping under Supplementary Rules, since it stayed on my mind. Should be pretty simple enough:
3. Finalized some groundwork for Primal expertises and started some preliminary fleshing out of the basics as well. Currently it's not finished, but people can kinda see what it's direction will be toward x3 Quite a bit of fun, stabby times.
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