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Post by Renathan on Mar 6, 2021 21:44:33 GMT -6
(Posting this because my old thread should be locked since the suggestion was accepted. <3) So, when I worked a long while back on getting the registries onto this site, I simply copy-pasta'd the old layout because I thought it might be working, and then made it to where people could post in one area for updates to keep it clean. It came to my attention when I was working on registries (the item and such one, not the custom/offspring/custom item etc. ones) that it was... Clunky. It was hard to update. Things could get skipped easily. People forgot to update their registries. It would take forever to get them updated. Even now it drains Mod time that could be better used elsewhere, and is a pain to update for everyone (mods and members!) My suggestion to fix this issue:-Remove the old registries. -Instead make a list of all things that Should be registered in the area. This would be stickied in it's own thread. Maybe add a blurb on how to use the area there! -Allow a person to make one thread in that area per account (IE: Like Magic and Combat are done) -Each person registers, in the order it is found on the 'list' mentioned above, their stuff theirself. They update their own registry. --A different post would be made for each different type of registry. These posts would be in the order of the list (IE: First post might be... VSC. Or shop items or something. The next might be crosses or something like that) -Have a thread posted and stickied by a mod that members can post in, and log what they changed that day about their registry (IE: 3/6/2021, removed x1 remnant crystal from my log, was sold to -Username here-.) Pros:-Mods would rarely ever have to get involved. This will cut down on one of the jobs needed to be done by a mod. -People would get used to just updating their own stuff after a find/purchase/sale and wouldn't get confused about what they own/don't own anymore -There would be a clear and defined log of how items or pets have changed hands, so that people could reference in the future what happened to something they might have lost -In the case of a dispute, provided people actually log their stuff, Mods can easily figure out where to start looking to investigate Cons:-Though we don't really have a cheating problem on the game, there is a slight possibility of cheating *Note that the current system already has a possibility of cheating, since it's not easy to corroborate where everything came from due to multiple site moves and other such things. -People might forget to update their stuff. *Note that people are already forgetting to update stuff, since it is easy to forget (me too y'all, me too <3)
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Post by Silver on Mar 6, 2021 22:15:57 GMT -6
I am genuinely interested in what users think about the registries, and how they feel like they're not working.
I can also provide a little context to the reason registries are the way they are now. (Not the Custom/Offspring/Custom Item ones - I did not set those up.)
It used to be more like what you are saying, where users posted all of their things and updated their registries themselves. However, the adoption rate was so poor, people neglected their lists so much, that it became an absolute drama to pin down who owned anything.
For example. If I say I own a Raincloud Malii I bought from Renathan, and Renathan never removed the Raincloud from THEIR registry... then a few months down the line never remembered selling it to me, but now it's listed in both of our user maintained registries... well, that's a huge issue and the old registries were absolutely gummed up in this way.
With the new system, I intentionally left all of the posts users made of trades in the threads. This is something I "stole" from Evelon. Whenever there was a dispute about who owned something, you could always go back to the list of trades, and if it says. "Silver posted 100 years ago that Renathan sold them a Raincloud Malii." Then we can conclude that Renathan never disputed this, so it must belong to Silver.
That is just context for everyone, not necessarily a defense of the current system or a suggestion about how to move forward. I encourage users to tell us what they want out of the registry system so that we can come to the best solution for everyone.
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Post by Renathan on Mar 6, 2021 22:22:50 GMT -6
I'd also love to hear what other folks think as well! <3 Y'all get in here.
As for me personally as a user the issues mainly lie in the following: -Mods don't have time to regularly update the registries. Or at least it seems to be that way. Because of this, people often get confused about what is going where. -Items that can be consumed get used, and then are forgotten to be removed from registries sometimes because said consumable items were registered and waited for a while to be put on the registry (and may have never been updated) sometimes to the point of confusion. -It is super easy for a person to say that they got something from someone, and that person might not notice that said person said that, so they might not know to dispute it? -People that sell items often don't post in registries, leaving only the purchaser's word to trust, which of course could be forgotten by the seller or could be false and then issues occur -It is very easy to accidentally get the wrong numbers of the wrong things in threads, and members may not think to check after a mod that may have made a simple mistake as everyone sometimes do
My experience from previous modwork that no longer applies to me but still: -It has always been confusing for people to figure out which registry a thing goes on/what needs to be registered. I did a lot of finangling with the system to try to fix these concerns that people had, and never really was able to make corrections that seemed to make sense with everyone.
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EDIT: I also wanted to extrapolate on the old system not working- I remember being very confused about registries as a child and didn't really remember them even being implemented. Perhaps it could be that some of the issue was that people were children at the time?
Also, I was just thinking but uh... I haven't ever seen registries actually be used to uh, well, make sure that people don't have something they shouldn't. Any situation where anyone can self-report, there can be mistakes and cheating. Registries seem kinda like a clunky extra step whenever they aren't even enforced/updated all that much.
If it was going to actually be enforced, a moderator would literally have to dig every. single. time. something gets found/bought/sold, and the sad thing is that a lot of sales/purchases seem to occur in Messages between friends these days. Messages aren't something that mods can really police from what I understand at my current limited viewpoint?
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Post by Noa on Mar 6, 2021 22:27:24 GMT -6
Ooooh you know what, I'm glad someone brought up the topic of registries reform, because I've got a lot of thoughts about it. Preliminary disclaimer in that these are just my thoughts and opinions. First, addressing some points that have already been brought up: Re: just letting users update their own registries posts - I personally don't know if shifting the accountability for registries to users full-stop is the answer here, because a lot of users (myself included) don't keep up with recording stuff as it is. Besides which, this would need every user to thoroughly learn the registries system themselves, rather than leveraging the fact that staff is more likely to already be familiar with its ins and outs. If it's overwhelming for me, it'll probably be even more overwhelming for newbs (not that we have a lot of those, but still). Honestly, at the heart of the matter, it really depends on how strict staff wants to be about this. Either the site enforces a check for ownership when stuff is used (ie for node making, in tournaments, or other official capacities), and therefore we need and should maintain the registries... Or the site doesn't do any of that, and registries can be done away with entirely. If it's too much staff work and there's no interest whatsoever in enforcing it, and we let users self-report, then what's the difference between this and simply letting users maintain their own ad hoc records, in their kennels or journals or wherever else they see fit? It doesn't make sense to me to have users maintain their own records under a 'Registries thread' if there's not going to be enforcement, since that's just extra work that a lot of people wouldn't bother with anyway. At the end of the day, I think 'official registries' are really a yes or no question of 'do we as a site want to enforce checks for ownership or not'. And if the answer is 'no, it's too much work', then the easiest solution would just be to nix them entirely, except for stuff like custom/offspring stats. I'm not saying one or the other would be better, necessarily; just that, if there's no real purpose to centralized record keeping, then there's no need to have it. A registry system is only really beneficial if it serves some sort of purpose for staff. Otherwise, users can just keep track of things as it suits their own needs, which is what we've always done anyway.
And now onto my suggestions for the registry system itself, if it does end up being something staff thinks is worth pursuing: I know I don't keep up with my registries here as much as I should, but the registry system was run a lot more tightly on Evelon before it all got automated (and I did a lot of the work maintaining said registries prior to the automation). Their system had a few key things that I'd love to see implemented here: 1. I REALLY think we'd benefit from not deleting users' posts in registry threads after the changes have been processed.I think it'd be a great idea to go back to the old system Silver was describing, where the posts are left in the registries updates threads, rather than being deleted. Right now, with the posts being deleted as they're processed by staff, we basically have no official paper trail to consult when we need to reconcile our transaction records unless users keep their own detailed trade records. Sure, for loot items you can work backwards based on staff posts in your thread, but user trades are still a big blind spot, esp if they happen over places that aren't captured on the forums (ie DMs). Plus, users have to make a post in the registry update threads anyway, so it'd save work if we could just consult those posts ourselves. Staff could probably just mark a post as processed the same way they currently do in the training application thread. IMO this change wouldn't require more work at all, and would be a QOL improvement for users (and possibly staff too; idk if yall can see deleted posts but if you can't) 2. Change registries layouts (vertical lists, list things by user in all threads)I have a lot of trouble parsing what I see in the actual registries threads for two reasons. From an organization standpoint, I think it'd be nice if I could ctrl+f my own name, and see everything that I own in that category... which is already the case for some lists like the VSC, but not for others such as the potion registry. The vertical list bit is admittedly more of a personal thing, but I find the current layout of the registries very visually overwhelming. I'm just putting it here in case anyone else has the same issue, but I find it much easier to read through and parse lists that are vertical, rather than the horizontal paragraph-esque layout it currently has. My eyes just sort of... glaze over, especially if I have a lot of something. Ctrl+f helps, but generally only if I need to find something specific. Alternatively/additionally, even alphabetizing entries under each user's name would help a lot, because then at least I'd have a general idea of where to look. Right now it seems to be operating on "order of registration", which is a lot messier to look through, and I feel like there's been at least a couple cases of items getting double-listed because of it (ie Fire Crystal x2, some other stuff, Fire Crystal x1) 3. Users post trades, staff records when things enter/leave the system (ie potion use, ZI sell-offs)I know staff are overtaxed as it is, but I really do think it would streamline the process for users and staff a lot more if users were only posting trades. Staff are already having to process a transaction when a user buys something from the shop or gives someone a registry-eligible loot item, or when a potion is used in the Potion Use thread (etc.) so it makes sense from a workflow standpoint to have the item be registered at the point of acquisition. Especially if we want to make registries like THE be all an end all of ownership recording (which I think was the intent, but hasn't really been the case in practice), IMO this would be the simplest way to make sure stuff gets entered into the system at the point it's 'created'. Otherwise we're counting on every single user to track transactions that staff processed, which splits the responsibility up more. Staff already know the system better too. And I think if users were only held accountable for trades, there'd be less of a learning curve. They could just look up the thing they already have, and then post the trade transaction when it gets transferred to another user.
I don't know how well I'm articulating this #3 suggestion, and tbh I doubt it'll come to pass just because of the state of staff workload... Though I think a reform of the registries system is going to be a lot of work for someone (or a lot of someones) no matter what the solution is, because we haven't already got a super up to date and thorough record in place as it is. Unless the solution is just to do away with it, anyway. :P But... yeah, there's my thoughts on the matter, at least.
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Post by Fanged on Mar 6, 2021 23:27:50 GMT -6
I think most of us are way better about registering our customs/offspring into their appropriate registry threads than we are at maintaining our registries as a whole. So I guess it's important to look at why the customs/offspring threads are consistently updated by users and the other registries aren't maintained as well by those same users. I think in my personal opinion, the registry system deals with so many things that it's way too overwhelming to update with every loot acquisition or quest prize obtained or whatnot. If I purchase a bunch of Ribbons of Telepathy, I'd need to get those registered both when I first obtain them and also when I decide to use them. But what ends up happening is that those only get registered when I actually decide to use them. x.x But also those might not actually get registered because then I'd end up getting overwhelmed with all the other stuff that I know I need to get registered as well but it's going to take a long time to get a post organized so it never actually happens.
Honestly maybe the thing that needs to have more of a record should be user to user trades. We have to post in the credit transfer thread when we trade in credits. There should probably be a thread to post in to keep a record of trades in general. Most things on this site have a paper trail. You can dig through my mansion thread and count up how many Remnant Crystals I've found. But if I trade five of those to someone else, then oops suddenly those things have gone MIA until both parties update their registries. However, if I post that I've traded those to User X at the time of the trade, then that trade has a proper paper trail that staff can follow.
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Post by Riku on Mar 10, 2021 19:43:27 GMT -6
I like the idea of either our own threads we update, like our magic or combat stats. Or the item transfer idea like credit transfers, that Leafy mentioned.
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Post by Silver on Mar 19, 2021 20:43:37 GMT -6
At the end of the day, I think 'official registries' are really a yes or no question of 'do we as a site want to enforce checks for ownership or not'. And if the answer is 'no, it's too much work', then the easiest solution would just be to nix them entirely, except for stuff like custom/offspring stats. I've asked both these questions in the past, with mixed results. I'd really love to hear more user input on this one before I make a call either way. Honestly maybe the thing that needs to have more of a record should be user to user trades. We have to post in the credit transfer thread when we trade in credits. There should probably be a thread to post in to keep a record of trades in general. Most things on this site have a paper trail. You can dig through my mansion thread and count up how many Remnant Crystals I've found. But if I trade five of those to someone else, then oops suddenly those things have gone MIA until both parties update their registries. However, if I post that I've traded those to User X at the time of the trade, then that trade has a proper paper trail that staff can follow. This was my intent when I made the new system, but I think it got a bit muddied over time. Personally, this is what I like to do. Just have a single thread where people can post updates and staff can get to updating it whenever, but there is always a paper trail for trades in case there's any disputes. That said, this circles back to what Aster said - if there's no consequences/enforcement, why would people bother to update this paper trail?
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Post by Riku on Mar 19, 2021 21:32:45 GMT -6
I think it’s important to have registries. No one wants cheating, and the temptation to cheat is just too much responsibility for us hoomans...as for consequences? What happens when we don’t post transfers for credits? Oh...they just don’t transfer. Hm. Well, if someone didn’t complete a transaction they had agreed to they would be...forced to honor it. Hm. And banning people for not registering things is excessive. Eep.
How about just make it a new update and rule to post any trades in the trades thread - just like credits - before sending the PM with items? People don’t typically break official rules that are that *simple* unless it’s an accident. The only complicated part would be maybe requiring everyone to register everything they have before any new posting? Hust like how you can’t post until your character is approved. If your ‘inventory’ isn’t updated, you should not be able to post. Then it’s as simple as posting your trades when you have them for them to be updated. -shrug-
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Post by Renathan on Mar 19, 2021 21:37:15 GMT -6
One of the main issues I see with this is people that are wishing to be more discreet with trades. Not everyone, especially when dealing with fleamarket USD, feels comfortable just flaunting money out in the open. It's one of the reasons why I've done things in PMs in the past- to help folks out that don't feel comfy hashing out deals in threads publicly.
Forcing people to do things out in the open might make them uncomfortable.
I really feel like the 'scorched earth' method of 'keep stuff 100% updated or face wrath/don't play' is unfair to people that might forget something? Not everyone is trying to cheat when they forget something. 0.0 I've seen both mods and members forget stuff before, and getting auto-banned/warned/etc. for that would be... Extremely excessive.
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EDIT: Especially when registries might not get updated on the regular- it is Hard to keep up with stuff, and very easy to go 'did I trade x in the amount of time since I updated this/this got updated by mods'?
I apologize for bringing this entire thing up! D: My fault entirely, I should have thought more first.
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Post by Fanged on Mar 19, 2021 22:45:05 GMT -6
I don't think a trade record keeping thread needs to be that detailed with exact prices. I think a simple form along the lines of:
Name: Fanged Recipient: Leafy What did I trade away?: 5x Remnant Crystals
I think public records for trades to some extent is the only way to prevent issues arising from people trading away things and then forgetting they've traded them away. I don't think anyone on this site would ever do things maliciously, but there's a real possibility of people forgetting what they've traded away. Especially when we have users go inactive for long stretches of time and then come back. And I think some of that does arise from people not keeping up with their registries (and I'm def guilty of not keeping up with mine). But I think it's been evident that the registries are a bit too large of a beast to keep up with every single trade that happens on this site.
Punishing someone super harshly for not registering a pet or an item seems unfair. But I also don't think it's fair to punish someone harshly for thinking a pet is theirs because the new owner never got it properly registered and they've forgotten they traded it away.
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Post by Silver on Mar 19, 2021 23:37:55 GMT -6
I totally do not intend to "punish" anyone when I say that the registries need to be enforced! What I was thinking was a lot more simple - if you do not register something, you cannot "use it" until you register it. For example, you can't use your Bracelet of Minor Agility at the pit until you register it, and your application will be denied until you do update your registry. Same with pets for tournaments or contests, getting bonuses for pets in loot areas (ala Mining Familiars), breeding breedables, making nodes, etc. (Then you're more than welcome to register your pet, come back and try whatever it is you were doing again, staff doesn't want to punish you, we just want you to keep track of your stuff!)
Any situation where an item or a pet is 'used', you cannot use the pet until you register it! This will require a little more attention from staff but I think it's worth it if registries are considered important by the community.
Edit: I also think users will probably have to post their loot gains as well. Such as "I gained 1x Fire Crystal from the Mines". I know this is a bit annoying, but it will take a heavy workload off staff if users did this, and if you're all updating your own registries/item lists anyway it shouldn't be too big of a deal.
For the registry/paper trail itself, I think Fanged is on the right track with this. Simply saying. "I received 5x Remnant Crystals from Leafy" is enough. I don't care how much or what you paid for them, I just want to know where you got them from!
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Post by Renathan on Mar 19, 2021 23:41:59 GMT -6
I think it would be prudent, if the system is rehauled to make it more like the above- if the registries were wiped and people re-registered their things again to get a clean/new slate.
I, for one, haven't been updating registries if I intend to sell the loot item ASAP- so stuff might not be accurate to the (possible) upcoming new standards? <- This mostly to keep mods from getting confused when updating the lists using the method that was in use up to this point.
EDIT- Unless people will be updating their own lists, and then posting it on a thread or something? /I think I may have read wrong somewhere along the line?
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Also, for the record, as a user, I don't actually like or care about registries as a whole. I'm just kinda like... If we have to have one, it might as well not be difficult/clunky/require a lot of work from everyone and be confusing and all. If we could just YEET registries at all and come up with something/or even nothing in replacement, it wouldn't bother me. <3
I've noticed the site is leaning more towards becoming Easier. A LOT easier. Things are easier to get. You can get crystals out of tons of different ways now. You can get pets tons of different ways. You can breed stuff with a lot less difficulty- save for sarane and houluh which I'm glad have remained mostly true to their intent (as the more difficult, 'goal' oriented breedables that they are :3). Things are being streamlined onsite for the busier working adult audience- Why not registries too? :3
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Post by Noa on Mar 19, 2021 23:53:11 GMT -6
The more I think about it, the more I feel like we might have to just keep going with the trust system we've been operating on thus far.
The thing is, I feel like the issue of 'staff workload' comes up so much. Even if users can be acclimated to registering our loot as we get them and posting trades, what then? Staff is going to have to check registries every time they process something, which is going to add an extra step to at least half the site functions.
And for them to be able to check things quickly, registries will have to be kept relatively up to date, and that's a high volume of transactions even without user to user trades, because staff will have to edit in updates that users post of their own loot rolls (which, by the way, is why I still think it makes more sense for staff to post the loot role edits directly - because they're going to have to record it sooner or later either way).
Not that it isn't possible, and not that there aren't benefits, but if staff workload is already an issue, this isn't going to do anything but inflate that pretty significantly.
I'm for a registries system if it can be maintained, I just... don't feel like it's actually going to happen in practice with the current site structure. Maybe that's pessimistic of me, but I just dunno.
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Post by Riku on Mar 20, 2021 12:45:29 GMT -6
I’m okay with the trust system, since that’s essentially what our broken registries have forced us to use for so long. However, if we do use a new registry system, I also agree that staff should update loot registries when they post the rolls - because just like Aster said, they will have to edit it in eventually. May as well do it on the spot.
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Post by Silver on Apr 11, 2021 17:33:22 GMT -6
I'm locking this for now. I'm calling it 'approved' because we are discussing changes to the registries. Join the discussion here.
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