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Post by Renathan on Apr 22, 2020 7:02:06 GMT -6
I'm making this suggestion outside of my 'Mod' capacity, as a user.
This suggestion will require a mod viewpoint, but would mostly require Artist's views since it is primarily an art concern.
To specify before we even start: This is not meant to confer any creature a statistical change or advantage by itself- only to allow for further customization ability.
- I'd like to suggest a return of the old 'unique lines' functionality that I'm unsure if anyone bought from spirit. Back in the day, spirit offered a $30 'unique set of lines' for an existing custom, or a 'work it out' price for a brand new custom on unique lines. Once again, I'm not sure if anyone ever ordered this service or if they did, got what they ordered. However, I'd like to see a 'return' of this Shop Functionality, with some changes. Specifically, this is my idea:
1. Instead of allowing for a concurrent purchase of 'unique lines' AND 'brand new custom', someone has to OWN the creature already. No concurrent purchases to avoid concerns that may arise (trust me, I can think of a few!) -This way, no one can avoid rules on stats and such, and possible cost combative behaviors are curtailed. -People can't clog the system with brand new customs constantly, when this feature is geared towards much-loved or older works. -That being said; nothing is keeping people from buying a custom. Waiting for it to come in, and then buying unique lines. -This also allows for further ability to register where the creature came from.2. Instead of just for customs, this could be used for Any creature at all. This includes regulars, LEs, VSCs, Customs, Offspring, Crosses, Dark Corner'sd pets. -This would allow people that LOVE their common/LE/VSC to make their creature look special and get the love it deserves. <3 -This would allow people with outdated custom, offspring, or (spirit) crossbreeds that aren't up to modern standards to be revitalized. -This would allow people to get a special unique image for their creature without killing it, grafting it with cyborg bits, or making it a tree. ;3 -Do you want to see that special RoT on your darling beastie? Want to see your weirdo nullified creature look spaced out? Buy a cool set of gear for your adventuring pal? Is your creature's base image in a happy pose, but yours is usually broody? Did your creature get a scar in a storyline? This could offer more customizability to creatures that have been well-loved in storylines! 3. This would NOT change the creature's stats under any circumstances! The stats would remain the same as they were before the service, and can be altered using the usual means (injections, etc.) -Nothing changes. It's just a normal pet of it's type, with a unique image. -You cannot use this to de-age or grow a pet that you haven't used the specific items on. -You cannot use this to add items to your pet that it doesn't already have. -You could, theoretically, use this to give a creature a haircut or something of that nature, though. -I personally don't think that this should be allowed to change a creature's base features, or markings in some cases. I would, however, like to see members like myself that are stuck with a custom harachiu that never grew that was paid to do so, to have the option to pay using this system to have their little one grown. I think there are two/three of us on site? x3 Unless another option comes up at some point.4. The creature could, theoretically, be dark corners'd again in the future if you need it to be. (if you want to spend all that money, of course) -You could also, in the future, have an already dark-corners'd creature get a full special unique pose. Of course it's MUCH cheaper to do it at the start by just throwing a $10 coin in the beginning, but if you decide you want your dark-corners'd critter to show off it's sparkly new whatever it got through your storyline/custom item/?potato?- more power to you. 5. This could be done in the Dark Corners, OR through Fleashops, whatever winds up being 'okay' or desired by the mod team and artists. 6. ANY person with any kind of a Fleashop onsite can offer to take on these 'Unique Lines' upgrades- A user would select an artist and pay them individually (paying that artist directly through their fleashop) for their work. -Artists could opt in and out of this if they wanted. -Artists could refuse to do an order (before pay) if they don't think they could do the creature justice. -Artists would be paid individually and directly. Notes: The Price could totally change to better suit Artist desires (or perhaps unique for each artist?) - Obviously this option would cost quite a bit (at least $30, maybe more) and would ONLY work on one creature per each order. So this option would not be everyone's cup of joe. It's completely optional. This option would never allow a creature to have special benefits statistically added to it just because of this function- it's purely cosmetic. People would be able to show their appreciation of a beloved pet of theirs that may otherwise be overlooked (or have yicky outdated art, bad anatomy, or maybe a bad pose!) in a way that feels personal and respects your personal attachment to said creature. Hopefully people would be able to LOOSELY ask for things like:-A pose that fits the creature's personality better (or just looks better). /but never requiring a specific pose outright -To have a beloved item or a few put onto the creature's new lines. /but only items you own, that are used for the pet and won't be removed -To show off a cool new move the creature might have received in the meantime. /maybe an injection it already has? Never anything brand new -A creature that has an injury to have the injury shown. /like scars, missing eyes, or ragged parts -Perhaps to have access to a 'bigger sized' file to look nice at, while having a 'standard sized' image for on-site use - So there you have it. :3 -Obviously this wouldn't be forced on any artist that doesn't want to take part. -This wouldn't be forced on any users as a to pay-to-play, since: - This wouldn't allow for statistical advantages to be added just because of this service. It's a purely cosmetic choice, for fun! If someone wouldn't personally want to use it- it still wouldn't remove the usefulness or improvements to the site for people that want to be able to do something nice for their beloved creature/s cosmetically.
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Post by Silver on Apr 22, 2020 7:19:39 GMT -6
This is something I've wanted for sooooo long! I think if there are artists who want to do it, it would be an amazing feature! It'll probably be a ton of work, though.
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Darky
Flea Market Artist
Veritas et Aequitas
Posts: 1,268
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Post by Darky on Apr 22, 2020 7:19:46 GMT -6
As good of a picture as it paints, I feel like a lot of these features can be covered in regular customs (such as adding items, scars, plot-relevant features) for probably half the cost. As an artist I can tell you creating completely new lines is a pretty extensive process, especially if you have to more accurately follow the original concept (rather than have room to play around with it, like you can with Dark Corner things). More-over, it's very similar to a project we discussed some time ago regarding giving those well-loved pets an option to be enhanced, so I feel like going forward with something like this would run the risk of creating too much confusion on the site when it comes to being able to identify creatures and their origins.
The latter part is more of a game design element, as right now you could look at the most outlandish of customs and still be able to identify the base breed and species and understand them. From a perspective of someone who does crossbreedings and constantly has to hunt down stats of parents I cannot even begin to tell you how frustrating it can be when it comes to some of the unique posed customs Yang drew, especially if they're completely different to their origin species in shape and form. Right now we have a fairly good sense of visual clarity and I fear introducing unique poses for posing sake will muddle things up.
This is mostly from the perspective of myself as a user. Myself as an artist already has waaaaaay too many things she needs to draw new poses for, and her plate is quite full, thank you x3 (Plus, Spirit said no unique poses originally when FleaMarket started)
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Post by Renathan on Apr 22, 2020 7:25:59 GMT -6
Note: The above concerns about 'keeping up with what thing is what' is easily fixed by using the Unique Pose system, and forcing people to re-register their creature (keeping old stats in the old threads for posterity and possibly linked) as well as registering them with a specific 'Species' line.
The Unique creature stats area already exists, so they would all be easily found on said stats thread.
Yes, the Yang customs/offspring are a pain. No, they were never really meant to be unique lined, and were a last resort at the time period over a weird system. These would not at all be like the Yang customs/offspring.
As for the rest of it, I totally get it. No one would be forcing anyone that is currently overtaxed or simply doesn't want to be involved (and I do agree that you are overtaxed, Darky) to take on something like this. -nod-
Another Concern: People cannot really do this with brand-new 'normal' customs if the species currently is not available for customs the usual way. x3 Not every species will be available in fleashops, it seems (especially not old, funky looking spirit crosses that could use better posing).*
*Paying $20 for a new species to be added to a fleashop, waiting for the lines to be created, then paying for a brand new custom is taxing on both the artist (the only one of which that is currently accepting orders for new species is severely overtaxed) and the user already.
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Also, it is not 100% like pre-discussed ideas that were batted about (you know what one) because it (1) doesn't confer additional stats (2) doesn't require extensive... requirements batted about, and (3) doesn't alter the art in a way that is like the usual Dark-Corners fare /making it look a 'certain way' like zombied, cyborg'd, or otherwise body-changed
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Post by Renathan on Apr 22, 2020 7:41:57 GMT -6
You could also theoretically refuse to use 'Unique Posed' creatures for crosses. No one is really stopping you if it would assist in your future ability to deal with cross matters.
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Post by Riku on Apr 22, 2020 7:46:28 GMT -6
At first sight this idea sounds amazing. I can 100% see why everyone would want this as a pet-owner.
Unfortunately, certain points have been made that I reluctantly do understand the need for caution against. Ren is right in that there is a semi-simple fix for the registration concern. However, the general identifiability of creatures I think is an easily overlooked concern. It doesn't sound important, but I can see how it would make a large portion of creatures practically their own species. So many pets are dramatically different than their LE counterparts, and that already makes it hard. (Which is often the intention of the one purchasing it, I'm sure.) However, this would add a whole new layer to that that would quickly make keeping track frustrating. Yeah, they'd be registered, but I feel like that list would grow rapidly, and soon enough there would be 30+ unique creatures that you practically have to have memorized without having to go scavenge the unique-registries.
That.....may not have made sense from my 48 hours of being awake brain.
TL;DR -I think it sounds amazing and have creatures I'd be interested in doing it with. -I know there already is a more controlled version of this in the works that I would make this 80% useless. -While having unique lines is a fun idea, it does come down to simply wanting official fanart of a creature that can already be infinitely reposed within the imaginary limits of general RP. -It would take a ton of whichever artist's time that could be devoted to universally-desired original content.
Of course, if an artist felt up to the task of both the skill and the time to offer such a thing, and the staff felt confident in their ability to organize it and work with Darky's mentioned concerns about origin for their beloved work in crosses, etc, - then I know a lot of people will enjoy this feature. I know I've suggested it privately myself. ;)
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Post by Renathan on Apr 22, 2020 8:00:58 GMT -6
May I ask why anyone would need to 'memorize' a huge list of creatures when it can easily be found on registry threads?
We already have tons of customs on site all with completely different and sometimes extensive stats changes. Looking stuff up onsite is a must already.
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Yes, it would take artist time. No artist would be forced to take something like this on, it would be optional. People could opt in and out of it as they please.
We already have a ton of stuff (customs shops) that take up artist's time for pay and doesn't really do 'universally desired content' to users. All of our incredibly generous Artists already do universally desired content inbetween orders at their own will. If an artist wants to take on a project, in my view, that might net them some extra pay- more power to them. If they don't, that's cool too. c:
Universally desired content is typically basically a 'donation' to the site wellfare as-is that is done on a 'artist wanted to do it' basis out of kindness. It's something I'm -very- thankful for, as I'm sure is the rest of the site, but money-making possibilities are also important for the health of the artist team as a possible supplementation.
While I do realize that a creature can be 'infinitely posed' in 'the mind'. That is not really relevant to this suggestion since it is what would be an option for people that Do want that visual representation. It's cool if people want to just use their mind/rp to 'repose their pet'.
Also, what is this option that's gonna make this 80% moot? ;3 Just because something has been suggested before doesn't mean that it is 'coming/about to happen'. There's a ton of ideas I've seen tossed about that never got done because people that would have to donate the most time/resources didn't have time to complete previous and current obligations in order to work on a 'future possibility'.
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As I said though, if anyone doing Crosses has issues searching for unique stats in the future, I'd suggest disallowing the use of Unique Posed DNA (or Yang unique posed creatures) for crosses. There likely will not be a ton of them in the future, and there are only a limited amount of oopsies from Yang as is. The 'negative effect' on the site for disallowing them for the uses in crosses will be minimal overall.
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Darky
Flea Market Artist
Veritas et Aequitas
Posts: 1,268
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Post by Darky on Apr 22, 2020 8:41:05 GMT -6
I wont disallow unique posed creatures from Crossbreeding, because that's not.. really a great fix x3; Just because something is implemented that changes the face of the game and its visual design that I personally don't agree with doesn't mean other people have to suffer for it. It's annoying to identify which creature is what, yes (especially since the filenames are fairly useless for identifying what is what) but that's on me, I'll deal. My point was more on how other people would deal, because the point of good game design is that people shouldn't have to check registries to understand what something is. Maybe there's a way around it, maybe there isn't, in my mind's eye I just see the same confusion cropping up that already did with those customs, so I feel like we've already seen what can happen.
Are the present poses for things really that bad?
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Post by Fiera Ferella on Apr 22, 2020 10:25:34 GMT -6
I think this is a great idea! Like you said, it doesn't affect stats at all, it's purely cosmetic/aesthetic. I could definitely see people wanting to do this for species that are very old or with poses that they don't like. (For example: I hate that one equillion v2 pose that essentially forces you to look right up its butt. XDDDD I refuse to get a V2 with that pose for that reason, lmao.) That being said though, it's not that the poses are bad, it's that people want to be able to play around with the pets they have.
I don't think it would "make LEs their own species" though- as Renathan mentioned, there's 0 stat changes. Most people list the species of their customs in their kennels, and the custom registry pages would list their species too. The only trouble I could think of would be for genealogy projects with long lineages full of pets that nobody owns anymore, but really, how many people are making those? And considering they'd all have to be registered and be well recorded. anyway, I don't think it'd be that much of a problem. Not to mention I don't think there'd be floods of them- it sounds like they'd be pretty pricy. Not a lot of people would go around throwing $30, so I think the population of these would stay low. And maybe we could make a restriction saying that if you have a unique lined pet, you aren't allowed to sell it? That way it stays registered to the same person forever and people don't have to worry about them flooding ZI or something.
I can also see why some of these things wouldn't really have a point/stat effect on customs (like ribbons of telepathy or battle scars, etc), but people would want to upgrade their pet's image to match their plot.
I think it also encourages people to play with their regular pets and LEs more without having to 'turn them into a custom' to have a bit of uniqueness to them. I love Desert, my savannah thundergug, and Lincoln, my copper lamadidron as is- I don't want them to be any different, but if I could get them in a different pose that reflects their personalities? Cool!
As a site artist, I'd definitely be down for it. :3
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Post by Alma on Apr 22, 2020 12:12:14 GMT -6
I do not believe I understand where this suggestion is coming from. If you really want special artwork showcasing a pet's personality or changes in appearance, why not make/commission it and stick it in the kennel? Or why not instead make it so the official artwork is for official uses like contests, mines, breedings, tournaments and so on, and allow users to use third party commissioned artwork for roleplaying with friends or display in their kennel with the official image linked to from the image? If a site artist wants to do said commissions on the side, then they can without it being linked to the official part of the site, and players can enjoy using the different artwork in their kennels/roleplays to illustrate the creature's personality while not causing any identification issues later on.
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Post by Ashe on Apr 22, 2020 12:59:25 GMT -6
I dont get some of the reasons against this? "Uniquely posed pets will make it hard to figure out what it is". So... if my LE Tainted got put in a bucking position instead of a rearing position, no one would know it was a Tainted Equillion? But we have many, many Gallor here that dont resemble their species at all. One is 100% a dog. I've had to check registries just to see what something is multiple times, and at this point I just assume "it's a gallor".
And "make artwork of it why need an official image"? This doesnt make sense as an argument against it, though it makes a wonderful suggestion in the case this doesnt happen. Theres plenty on this site that "why bother when I could just.." (ie any custom nonfunctional item) but people do it because they want to. The commission IS ordering artwork from an onsite artist, artists we already know and adore the work of. At $30 a pop it pays for the effort (crossbreedings and dark corners stuff are unique lineart too and priced the same) though artists could change the price themselves obviously. It would be up to the artist if it's worth their time, as no one would dream of forcing anyone to add this option, and if no one wants to take it on it wouldnt happen.
While I see this as a "why not", it is definitely up to the artists if they'd be up for it, and I think all of our artists are pretty taxed. That is an extremely valid reasoning, I would hate to try to add pressure to anyone's large workload. And if Spirit said no to it, I'd be interested in a screenshot of it for staff records for future reference.
I support this being a "thing", like an official ruling of no stats changes etc for a pose change, but rather than a sitewide suggestion itself, its completely up to individual artists. I'd hate to make this an option and then never have anyone actually do it, If that makes sense.
"-I know there already is a more controlled version of this in the works that I would make this 80% useless."
@riku, what is this?
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Darky
Flea Market Artist
Veritas et Aequitas
Posts: 1,268
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Post by Darky on Apr 22, 2020 13:54:50 GMT -6
Oddly specific request on the screenshot, but if my word's not enough I understand. Might take me a bit, it was some 6-7(?) years ago now and about two hard drive swaps, there's a bunch of archive folders to shift through.
Re: The thing in the works, you can find details about it from Ren, its been developed but not ready for public yet.
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Post by Ashe on Apr 22, 2020 18:18:41 GMT -6
It's not oddly specific at all, it's not uncommon to have screenshots or links to posts of past rulings. None of us three (Ren, Obs, and myself) have been fleashop owners so if there are rulings in fleashop discussions with spirit, it would be key for us to know so things dont get implemented that were forbidden. I'm not requiring a screenshot from you, just if you happen to have access to it or come across it again, any details from Spirit would be handy, I think.
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Post by Renathan on Apr 22, 2020 18:56:14 GMT -6
AND I'm going to go ahead and lock this. -nod- - Here's what seems to be the verdict: If an artist wants to offer this at some point, please let the mod team know and discuss it.Any artist can request this as a project if they want, no one has to, and they can back out after taking a however many they want. If everyone remains overtaxed or doesn't want to take it, this just won't happen. c: That's perfectly fine!The most IMPORTANT thing is that overtaxed artists do not take more to their plate, at least until they feel more comfortable. I do not want to see any artist struggling or having increased anxiety over workload! I am concerned that some of the art team is already drowned in work as-is, or dealing with more pressing matters away from the computer. This was meant to be an option for the future, if it was allowed by the mod team (seems that it would be) for artists to pick up if they have more time, interest, or need more options for variety of orders (since variety does help people earn more money from different types of orderers). - Note on: 'Developed ideas' Just because something is a 'developed' (IE: had a few jotted down notes about a vaguely 'similar' (actually not similar at all other than it's another 'Dark Corners' from the last I saw it) idea that quite frankly WOULD be cool but would be dumping something on an already overly taxed plate- (I've seen other stuff jotted down nearly a year ago that was not gotten around to, after all) does not mean that it will ever come to fruition. IE: I am STILL waiting on commissions offsite from artists I commissioned more than half a year ago. This is fine, because art takes a LONG time and -lots- of hard work. Artists have lives and hobbies they deserve to be able to do their own thing and not work theirself into the dirt. BUT art commissions can be very hit or miss when it comes to timely delivery due to the nature of it. Sometimes, things sit in, for better or worse 'development limbo'. This is a truth all across the internet. I would love to see ideas to further creatures that could be added to the Dark Corners. I'd love to see more Dark Corners areas in general! But, I will believe them when I see them due to overtaxing art lists. - Note- Retiring, Development Files, Mods I am retiring ASAP, after all, and I am not the moderator anymore for the Artist Assignments to be done through- as was discussed a long while back. Darky, I would heavily suggest speaking with Ashe about your idea file if you have not already, as we spoke about a few weeks ago. I have been alerted that does not seem to have found it's destination, which is why I wasn't alerted that there was a fully developed idea somewhere floating around. We already discussed that I was no longer the 'file mod', that Ashe was 'the file mod' now, and you agreed to send the link to the new file mod. Everything was still Very Nebulous the last time that I was the 'file mod'. I don't have any more information about all of this other than a vague idea, so I can't give anyone any information. Please send the file (that I lost the link to when I stopped being the file mod) to the file mod as we discussed. c: - -> I don't think it is a bad thing to 'offer something to the other artists IF they want it'- especially since the idea that was come up with seems to be only for a specific artist on the team, and IS -very- different and more 'prestigious' than this idea. - Note on: 'Are the old images that bad?' Some of them- YES.Darky does small edits to the poses and anatomy of every single creature that is picked up for her shop- and they look AMAZING with all of that care and hard work! If the old poses and anatomy were perfect, I doubt that Darky would make all of the lovely, perfect changes she has to things like the Mosca (back legs), Ghaenelt (general fixes), Balgor (the whole thing- wow!), and Gallor (leg positioning). The new Tat-lung lines are so perfect that they made otherwise 'ugly looking' breeds (outdated art, funky anatomy on the old ones) absolutely -stunning-. Yes, some of the old art is no longer up to snuff, or perhaps was always a bit weird. - Even if some of the old images weren't a mess: As FF stated, this would be a SUPER expensive option and I doubt there will be a lot of them if this idea even gets taken on by anyone, since it also doesn't add any statistical bonuses like 'ideas that are developed' would. I mean, look at the Dark Corners already. The most of the orders are in Tats, and that is probably due to how very customizable they are! Botany and the Temple have only a few right now, and the Cyborg thing hasn't been touched since it was placed up! And those give statistical advantages given. - I hope everyone is doing well. <3 Please be safe.
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